Curse

Essence Snow · Sep 14, 2011, 03:54 PM // 15:54

Idk bout any of ya'll, but I am sick of death nova. I constantly find my hero mm lagging behind b/c they are casting death nova. Most of the time mobs are dead b4 my mm and it's minions even get to the fray.

In my hero settup I also run a shelter rit, which is counter productive to minions dying. Since I'd rather have shelter in my settup than death nova, I am entertaining ideas on replacements.

I was wondering what ya'lls thoughts were on a suitable replacement for DN would be given I still want some minions and I'll be using a shelter rit.

TiagoS1 · Sep 14, 2011, 04:09 PM // 16:09

Hey Essence!

Long time we don't run Paras ^^

Anyway, atm i run a build with shelter on a hero too and, being counter productive with minions i use to run 1 discord with putrid bile and putrid explosion and another two with putrid bile/explosion and some minions. Im using minions purely for meat shields.

So! I believe Putrid Explosion/Bile are awesome skills in PVE.

Cool Name · Sep 14, 2011, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Is it just personal preference that is making you want minions? Because I used a MM for ages, with him lagging behind, but I was too scared of getting rid of him. Turns out I didn't really need him if I have a shelter rit and lots of damage (See Dillway thread here, I recommend it). Because even if you get a replacement for death nova your minions will still lag behind a bit and unless you wait for them to catch up and then send them in first I don't think they are that useful.

Bristlebane · Sep 14, 2011, 04:39 PM // 16:39

I guess a Bone Fiend MM without Death Nova + hexes would work better with ST Shelter, at least they stay a bit back.

Katastroff · Sep 14, 2011, 04:52 PM // 16:52

Even if minions are lagging behind, the dmg spike they inflict with DN on them is very impressive.
I use that to my advantage. I flag heroes, set up spirit in front of them and go get the initial spike.

By the time any foes get to my spirits, they are over run by 20-25 minions.

I run:

Me as SoS "You're all weaklings" R/RT what the heck is a bow

build

3 Disco-face rolling, minion making, necros 2 are /RT 1 is /Mo
1 RT/X St earthbind, Rejuv, Recup so you can over aggro the whole radar build
1 Mes/X PI Inspiration/Domination (nasty little chick that Gwen)

1 Ele order to softening stuff up
1 X/X hero to help according to what i do.

Psyschic Instabillity with knock down anything till your minion arrive so you basically only have to bunch'em up and pick up your drops.

Xenomortis · Sep 14, 2011, 05:11 PM // 17:11

Minions don't assist in damage dealing without Death Nova or Order of Undeath. Heroes are pretty poor with OoU builds, but it might work out for you.
If you don't use OoU or Nova then minions are not worth it. If stuff is dying before your MM gets to the fight then what you're doing does not merit minions; stop taking him.

AndrewSX · Sep 14, 2011, 05:19 PM // 17:19

With Shelther Rit a OotU MM could be a replacement. I've tested it for a while, and must say that AI wasn't that bad as i thouth...Livia never managed to kill herself only for minions hitting.
The bar was something like OotU-Fiend-BotM-Taste of Death-Masochism. Plus Sols/2 open slots+att for prots/shouts/blood-curse stuff.
Works good for meeles that may like to have complete aggro control, cuz being ranged they don't run up to you screwing your ball.

Other interesting thing is putting DNova on another hero -I tried Mes- so MM itself won't lag behind (minions will do even using FBack tho). Cause DN is 5ene and no recharge, if FC reduce the cast time the result is having more bombed minions afterall, and less lagging of the caster.

Tbh, i've got rid of DN anyway, even w/o ST Rit or using OotU MM. I prefer AotL + Horror and then Botm (+Taste) spam. 11 lvl 20 minions, healed by the MM, running around isn't bad at all. Matter of taste.

itiscurtains · Sep 14, 2011, 05:48 PM // 17:48

I agree with Xeno - without Death Nova, minions aren't doing any damage. If you're having trouble with your MB lagging behind, drop a flag.
To be fair, though, it sounds as though you're doing fine without the minions, so going minionless is probably the best option. I'm not a big fan of Shelter + minions anyway.

Lanier · Sep 14, 2011, 06:03 PM // 18:03

I always just wait for a second before entering a new fight so that my minion master can catch up to the group. Personally, I couldn't even imagine getting rid of him, since having minions in the party provides so much passive protection.

Spiritz · Sep 14, 2011, 06:30 PM // 18:30

The problem isnt the skill itself but the annoying way they stop and cast.
I think i used to put DN on a non mm necro - that way the minion master wasnt held back as much.These days i use a diff approach on mobs - instead of head on an minions bring up the rear i tend to straff to one side ( eg mob is north and i go w or e ) then i swing up an engage - that way its sort of L_ shape and the minions pile in from the side - feels like a 2 prong attack and can be funny to watch.

For those who like a spot of fun - get a few mm`s and a para with fallback , as the minions used to come from behind id micro fallback and watch the minions charge forward with speedboost - often they target 1 foe an watch him die in seconds ( hm btw ).

Relyk · Sep 14, 2011, 10:01 PM // 22:01

That's the reason I rarely use MM anymore; the day I started using Shelter was so nice without an MM always lagging behind. I haven't noticed the absence of the MM since spirits prove to be enough distraction.

Using Bone Horrors and Shambling Horrors make it much more unlikely to trigger Shelter. You still have the option of AotL, Jagged, or Animate Flesh Golem for minion wall. I'd ignore Flesh Golem since his high health doesn't make him an attractive target. I favor Jagged Bones for minionwall with fewer minions.

Putrid Explosion also stands out, it could potentially be used along with minions, but the short recharge means you'd have to micro it to avoid unwanted explosions or burning energy. Cheap 120 AoE damage can be very good.

You can drop the elite and stick Incoming/Fall Back on the MM for the sole purpose of making your minions move faster.

Amy Awien · Sep 15, 2011, 07:10 AM // 07:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

I was wondering what ya'lls thoughts were on a suitable replacement for DN would be given I still want some minions and I'll be using a shelter rit.

A regular minion master, or two, with Order of Undeath and BotM. Bone Fiends get the bonus from EBSoH too and can kill quite fast, regular minions can still provide a wall.

Anaraky · Sep 15, 2011, 08:40 AM // 08:40

I would drop the MM altogether. If we assume 100% Shelter uptime the defensive benefits of having a MM/MB is ignorable and the way they deal damage is incredibly clunky and unreliable. However if you really want a MM/MB it is as mentioned above: OoU or Death Nova. Without either of those skills there is no reason at all to take a MM/MB.

Bristlebane · Sep 15, 2011, 01:01 PM // 13:01

If Shelter is adding enough protection for your party, I agree with TiagoS1 that Putrid Explosion will be a good alternative to minions and Death Nova. And since cast/rechange is rather fast, it will stop any necro for to MM or blow up the corpses.

chuckles79 · Sep 15, 2011, 03:22 PM // 15:22

I find this happening a lot. Running only one MM helps this, as well as disabling Death Nova on long hikes.
Using Fall Back (or having a hero use it) assists greatly, since it heals the minions while speeding up the group.
Lastly, if you need them for the fight; then wait for them. Otherwise just start the fight anyhow and they'll catch up.

Carinae · Sep 16, 2011, 03:48 AM // 03:48

I usually run Olias as MM and I'll admit he can be "moody". Some days you just have to set a flag and FORCE him forward, and/or disable DN when he spazzed on it, but most days it isn't a serious issue because if/when enemy melees charge into your mid/backline, they see the minions even further back and re-target to them. Not only does this take the pressure off your casters, but it pulls the enemy melees out of healing range and minions eat them by themselves.

I do run Hayda as P/Rt with Fallback too and it helps greatly. Charge and Incoming work also depending on bars and heroes.

But remember MM's are wrecking balls, so you need to keep moving mob to mob as quickly as possible. Do it right and the minions stay in "attack" mode and won't lag behind.

Hephaestus Ram · Sep 20, 2011, 02:08 AM // 02:08

I always leave my DN necros bar open and micro DN. I turn it off just before the battle ends and turn it
back on right after the next battle gets started. Been doing it so long I don't even think about it.

If it looks like I need to do huge damage fast I'll pull up just out of range, let the MM cast it on the minons
for a half dozen times or so and then shut it off just before we engage. That way it's precast but the MM
won't hold back to keep it casting. I can turn it back on once the minions are involved.

When there's a situation where I don't want to deal with microing DN I just replace it with Putrid Bile or
another animation spell.

I like to bring minions not only because they can absorb a lot of damage, but they also make great
foils when my team needs to break off and retreat.

Belzebu · Sep 20, 2011, 08:27 PM // 20:27

I'll try to run my necro as a SoGM OAhiYwgM5s9Nd2Ett5k5kAWVB and my other 2 Rits as ST and SoS Resto.

I may change Disenchantment and Dissonance for another utility skills but it seems very viable and those spirits may soak damage as well as minions.

You can even change SoGM for Wanderlust + Earthbind for some KD.

LexTalionis · Oct 03, 2011, 01:05 PM // 13:05

Probably repeating myself here, but ever tried Putrid Explosion?

It's a bit more expensive than Death Nova, but it's instant and heroes use it pretty well and won't waste corpses. Also goes off when you want it. Of course, if you're neurotic about having insufficient corpses, you might not like the idea, but I've never really felt cramped by that since I use utility BiP MMs which are at least somewhat useful in just about any situation.